tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC February 22, 2011 7:00pm-8:00pm EST
>> and look, here's democratic congressman chris van hollen as well. >> social security is not a driver of these deficits and debt. we are not going to balance the budget on the backs of social security beneficiaries. it is solvent 100% until the year 2037. >> look, i love it. actual democrats fighting for social security. what we wanted all along. guess what? if we fight, we can win. that's the show, everybody. "hardball" is up right now. > workers, unite. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris mast thew down in washington. leading off tonight, going for broke. don't think for a second that both sides in this fight don't think they're right. they do and with a passion. the republican governor of wisconsin is convinced he's
doing what needs to be done. break the backs of the unions when it comes to state budgeting. he wants them tamed until the worse they can do is to get a raise that keeps the workers up with the cost of living and that's it. and what happens in wisconsin is not going to stay in wisconsin. eight other states are considering eliminating bargaining rights. the unioning know this is their death nell why would anyone pay dues? pay to pay a union leader who can't do anything for them. plus, libya slips further into chaos. gadhafi gave a speed meanwhile, much of eastern libya is in the hands of people calling themselves revolutionaries. we're going to get an update from the region. plus, why would anyone allow college students to be carrying concealed weapons all over
campus? the texas legislature thinks that's a dandy idea. the theory seems to be if everyone has a gun, there will be no gun violence. i think that's the dodge city theory. let's see how far they're going with that. and a new unpublished tell-all book by a former aide to sarah palin, i think we call these people rats, but they're useful at sometimes, paints her as a foul-mouthed celebrity obsessed with the press and petty feuds. also, we have footage of j.f.k. and jacqueline kennedy in houston. the night before dallas. this never before seen film has just surfaced and we're going to show it to you. boy, they look great. a tragic story. finally, if you missed by documentary last night on bill clinton president of the world, you can see it online. hardball.msnbc.com. you'll have an hour of fun. i think it's without commercials, by the way.
let's bring in wisconsin where the unions are fighting back against scott walker. in a battle to the death. an old friend of ours, haired is president of the national association of firefighters and is joining us right now. i want to ask you about this thing about this pattern. we're looking at states that couldn't be more important politically. harold, you know the issues involved. these are the mid western states. there's a whole bunch of them. illinois, indiana, ohio, michigan, wisconsin. you see them all bunched up together around the lakes region there in the industrial midwest. then florida thrown in there. all these states, you've got republicans in the state legislature, did well in november, out to kill the labor movement by going after public employees and saying you really don't have the right to negotiate anything but basic wages. even in that case, you better keep them lower than the cost of living. in other words, you won't ever get real raises ever.
where do you think this is going to end? >> first of all, it's much broader than this. this is an outright assault on worker rights and trying to silence the workers' voices. it's not just about the eight states -- ohio -- by the way, add to that iowa nebraska, the states that are trying to undercut if not totally eliminate the collective bargaining rights these workers have enjoyed over many decades. this is about right to work laws in a dozen state. this is about paycheck protection laws that they call protection, which as you know is really paycheck deception, which is trying to silence workers' voices in the political process. 15 states. this is about dues, deductions, laws that have been passed in alabama to eliminate the opportunity for workers to even have dues deductions for their unions. now, it's in tennessee, oklahoma, spreading into other states. this is an absolute coordinated, organized attack in the 19 states whose legislatures flipped, and those states whose
governors became republican-controlled, we have over 500 anti-workers pieces of legislation introduced in those states already in this session. this is an assault on workers' rights, and it's an assault on those of us who represent workers to be able to continue to do that and give them a voice and place at the table where decisions are made. >> let me bring in ed rendell. former governor, and an msnbc now political analyst. it's great to have you. you've been on both sides of this. a pro labor democrat. you've also had to run state and keep a budget. look at this fact. we got a new number. i'm amazed at this number. it's in the "washington post" this morning. only 14%, 1 in 7, of whites who don't have college degrees think obama's done anything for them. in other words, this is 6 out of 7 white workers who don't have college degrees. you can call them working class, though that's kind of a british
idea, who are not happy with this president. now, you look at the people lobbying, fighting with the picket lines, mostly white people, mid westerners, not east coast liberals or elite. look at these people. these are the people you would think would be one of those 14% that don't like obama. yet they're there on the political activist side of this fight. how does it work? >> i think, chris, it's because they're under attack and if your basic way of life are under attack, you will step forward regardless of what your political leanings are. i think the governor went too far. let me just say this. governor walker is right to help balance the budget in wisconsin and pennsylvania and states all across the country, they're going to be to have givebacks on the benefit side. government workers are going to have to contribute more to health care, contribute more to pensions. and the union i think has responsibly recognized that. where governor walker went too far is trying to get rid of collective bargain.
i heard him say on on the air over the weekend, he said we won the election and this is what people want. well, people wanted a reduction in spending, but governor walker didn't campaign saying he was going get rid of collective bargaining. he had done so, i'm not sure he would have won the election. it's not a popular idea with wisconsinites. look, collective bargaining can work. you know i took over philadelphia at the time it was facing its worst financial crisis ever. i went to the table and said to the unions, you're going to have to give us back significant benefits and work rule changes. they resisted. i went to the public. we won that battle. there was a short-lived strike, and we got the concessions we needed to put philadelphia back on track. when i became governor, pennsylvania state workers didn't contribute a dime to their health care. they're now paying 3% of their salaries toward health care. that's the way you do it. collective bargaining doesn't always mean the workers always win. if you make your case to the people, it can be an important function for balance.
>> let me go back to harold from the firefighters. i want you to look at an ad put out. it's an overall ad, but it's put out in wisconsin. an ad from the wisconsin afl-cio. let's listen. >> governor walker, public employees have agreed to the cuts you asked for, and now they're simply asking that you not take away their rights. we stand together or we fall together and we're asking the people of wisconsin to stand with us. >> what do you make of that? that is a pretty strong ad. i want to ask what you think about it. >> i was at a disadvantage. i could hear the add, but not see it, but i thought it was right on point. i'd like to make a -- let me make a comment about the governor's comment. i will say this. his point is that in some ways, well made. let me make it clear, the
workers out there, we have already made it clear. governor walker already knows that they are prepared to pay toward their pensions, to pay toward their health care. this is simply a cover. this is a dishonest attempt to simply silence the workers' rights, voices and take away their rights. i'll say one thing about governor rendell and we have had our disagreements, but he has always upheld the rights that workers should be represented by their unions at the bargaining table. governor walker said it's not political. let me just say then how does he carve out the cops, state troopers, including firefighters by the way that we did not ask for and try to pit labor amongst itself? this is an old tactic. >> why did he do it? >> this is divide and conquer. give a few something, take one away from everyone else is same thing. allow the battle to take place
inside the house and you stand back and just watch them fight each other. that's not what's happening in wisconsin. firefighters were marching with, fighting with, standing on the front line with and we are staying united with all the workers in wisconsin. this is a cheap trick by walker trying to eliminate the ability of those workers to be represented. >> and chris -- >> let's let the governor speak. here's governor scott making a point. i think you will disagree with this. here he is today. governor walker saying what the fight's about. >> if i have to choose between the demands of a few union leaders or staying with the hard working taxpayers of wisconsin, i'm going to stand with the taxpayers. raising taxes is the last thing you want to do in a bad economy. >> there is he is saying this fight -- over taxes. is it not a budget issue? if you've got the power of union to negotiate higher wages or rules beneficial to the
employees, isn't it always about the budget? that's what he's saying. >> let me make a point about the budget, but i would first like to point out that the hundreds of thousands of public workers in wisconsin are taxpayers and they pay their taxes toward their communities. second, let's talk about that budget. in 2009, the wisconsin pension plan was 99% funded. the pension plan got into trouble during this crash of a market that went from 14,000 to 6,500. with that said, the reality is there's a shortfall. but these employees are willing to com to the table. they already indicated they understand that they have to put up and pay for their part and they're willing to do that. he doesn't want that. that's not what his game or goal is here. he wants to strip the workers of their rights and this is coordinated all across this
country. this is like patco in 1982. that's the kind of moment we're in. >> except it was an illegal strike, a wildcat. >> chris, two points i wanted to make. >> right, harold? wasn't it a wildcat strike by a union that had supported reagan? let's get the facts straight. and didn't they break the contract they were under? >> when they locked those workers up in shackles was the same time they were celebrating solidarity and polling for workers striking for their same rights. >> weren't they pro-reagan in that union? i just want the facts straight on this show. >> you know what? i can't tell you. >> they endorsed reagan and by the way, they broke a contract. they were wildcatting. it was a different story here. i just want the facts to be correct here. >> you're correct, chris. >> governor, i want you to look at a couple numbers.
everyone thinks these guys have the hot hand. look at your former governors. here's cuomo up at 57-33. he's not pulling these stunts. 43-42. brown. he's up ahead slightly. then christie, who's ahead. then walker, who's behind. it seems to me this isn't a guaranteed address for success operation. you think christie's going to be in great shape two, three years from now? walker. governor rendell, you've been through these fights. how do they work out politically? >> it's hard to tell. chris, it's hard to tell what the economy's going to look like, whether there will be a recovery, but i think governor. walker is making the second big mistake. one, collective bargain, the unions always win. that's not true. the public decides and you can make your case to the public and win those battles. you don't have to get rid of collective bargaining, you just have to do it right.
bargaining means both sides do it. by the way, it's at the heart of what has made this country different. secondly, governor walker is being unfair and the public understands fairness. at the same time, he's asking the workers to take these hits and they're taking them. he's also cutting taxes for business. when i became governor, i thought business taxes were too high and for six years, i lowered business taxes even though i had a deficit when i took over as governor. in years seven and eight, the rescission hit and i had to lay off workers. i stopped cutting taxes for business. you can't lay workers off at the same time and cut taxes. everybody's going to have to feel the pain fairly and governor walker's not doing that. that's why i think public opinion is turning against him. >> you know, i would have loved to have seen you and jerry in the same room fighting with each other. that must have been quite a sight. >> it was fun. >> mr. shaffer, thanks for joining us. i agree with your argument.
i think you're wrong about patco. i think they were breaking the law and they were a pro reagan union. we've got to keep these things straight. thank you. coming up, moammar gadhafi, this guy is wacko, and i think he's toast. he vows to fight to the end. that probably seems to be in a day or two. he's bringing in mercenaries, hiring people to kill libyans. i think he needs to go to trial. how long will he last? we'll get the report from the region next. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. ♪ countin' the days till friday night ♪ ♪ that's when all the conditions are right for a good time ♪ [ male announcer ] advanced technology that helps provide cleaner air, cleaner water, and helps make all of us more energy efficient is something the whole world can get in step with. [ static ] ♪ i need a good time [ male announcer ] ecomagination from ge. it's technology that makes the world work. ♪
senator john thune of south dakota has joined the list of people not running for president. he announced his decision today saying president obama will be tough to beat and he'd rather remain in the senate. and fight for conservative prin tells there. he was considered a dark horse candidate. the rare republican could unite the establishment with its tea party base. i think that would have been the case, though he did vote for the bailout of wall street, which was a bush idea. he's the latest high-profile
republican to say he's not running. chris christie's pulled himself out. they're joining the sidelines. this is fascinating and good news for the democrats. ♪ maxwell house international. stop your world. ♪ stop your world. nothing starts your day like honey roasted, honey bunches of oats. with a kiss of golden honey. and the same calories per serving as special k original.
welcome back to "hardball." a defiant moammar gadhafi ranted for more than an hour and a half today, speaking from his tripoli residence, he's urged his supporters to hunt down the protesters. he vowed to go down fighting to the last drop. >> i will not leave the country. and i will die as a martyr. again, i will fight until the last drop of my blood. with the libyan people behind me. >> wow, the rambling speech came as libyan military units defected and sided with the protesters.
hundreds have died at the hands of gadhafi. he's hired african mercenaries. one of his ministers stepped down today. nbc's stephanie gosk joins us by phone from cairo. this looks like one of the most bizarre endings to a bizarre man. 40 years of strangeness, looking at the sky when he talks. still doing that. a mystic -- at least pretending to be a mystic. now, it looks like he is going to get killed. >> we don't know if he's going to get killed, chris, but this was vintage gadhafi today. he went on and on and on. at times, coming unhinged and calling his supporters. he seems to think he has a lot of them. he's calling them to join the fight and violence. even after the scenes we have heard about about had various reports of bodies in the streets, people afraid to leave their homes to collect those bodies, he's now inciting even
more violence. you know, we were on the border today with libya, and we were talking to egyptian workers fleeing libya. they were inside working on construction projects and things. they said across the board a couple of things. one, they were shocked at how quickly the country fell apart. it happened really rapidly. two, they were talking about these mercenaries and how brutal they are. they mentioned mercenaries from sudan, chad, that they are well armed and shooting people on sight, and indiscriminately. a group of men said they were taken captive by some mercenaries and held until they came up with ransom. and then released. what they describe is a scene of complete anarchy even though protesters are saying they have control of that part of the country. >> do you know of any alliance that would allow him asylum? any friend of the world that would receive him? if he showed up on a plane with
enough gas to get him there? >> reporter: if he does, they're not stepping forward very quickly. what we are seeing is a leader that is digging his heels in, maybe because he wants to maybe because he has to. he may not have any other options, and he's going to stand there and be defiant and tell the protesters and everyone that supports him that he's going to fight to the last drop. you hear those words and they're pretty chilling. chris? >> take care of yourself. what a strange place to be. at this time. stephanie gosk, great reporting. thank you from the border. let's bring in hisham from al arabiya tv. seems like this man is a man without a country and without an ally. >> absolutely, he was delusional, defiant and afraid. you can tell this man -- >> he looks spooked. >> exactly. spooked completely. standing on the ground shaking from under him. his back is to the wall and he's declaring war on his own people. >> tell me about the clan behind
him. people say he has a clan. >> it's a small tribe. this is a tribal society. he was right when he said the tribes are armed. and there are tribal loyalties. that's why we're not sure about the army. the army may splinter. may follow tribal loyalties. his tribe is not that big, and according to the minister of the interior, our friends in the opposition are saying most of the tribes are turning against them. the more violence he -- >> he doubled down to use a crude expression when he brought in mercenaries. once you bring in mercenaries to kill year own people, you will be hanged. you can't let someone leave the country who's hired foreigners to commit violence against your own people. he is a criminal. he's not going to get the international community. on >> the international community should say whether it would be tribal, he and his son -- >> what about these mercenaries? how do they get clearance? to get to a country like that, how do they get onto an airport
and leave the country and show up? >> he brought them. >> just sneak them? >> he's been involved in african affairs for some time. remember the adventures in chad and -- >> the whites used to do that in africa. the wild geese used to be all over. now, the black africans are in that business. what, they come out of the diamond business? around the tough traffic --? around congo and places like that. >> there is a lot of soldiers in africa and young men. >> with semiautomatic weapons. >> they are very expert at it. >> they are ruthless. >> they don't care about their own people, let alone about foreign people. >> so, they bring in people, kids, young adults, coming in with semiautomatic weapons and mow down people because you want to live a couple more weeks. he could have gotten out alive. a couple weeks ago, right? >> not him. where would he go? he's delusional. >> he's been there since i was teenager. >> can't he go to saudi? >> they hate his guts. people in the gulf hate him. he's universally hated in the arab world. he brought nothing but misery not only to his own people --
>> but everybody is saying that, there's the guy in that ridiculous uniform doing this weird cartoonish behavior and comic book behavior, and everybody says that now, but he was getting away with that. he went in when nixon went in. >> 1969, exactly. >> look at him, and everybody now says he's cede, but for 40 years he was crazy like a fox. he had the oil? we treated him like a diplomat or foreign leader. we negotiated with this guy. >> look at how the europeans have enabled him for decades. the italians, the brits and others because they were thirsty for the best oil in the world. which is libyan sweet crude, which is easiest to refine. in fact, even after 2004, when libya was removed from the countries sponsoring terrorism, american oil companies began to go back to libya, and other companies and others in bush administration were pushing for normalizing relations,
putting pressure on the victims of lockerbie bombing to accept compensation. open up the door, and there were people, including neocons that began to visit libya, including richard perle and others, to refurbish libya's image and moammar gadhafi's image. there were a lot of enables to this regime. >> the former congressman was telling me how his son was going to be a great new reform leader. what happened to that? >> his son was declaring war on his own people. >> we had this dream if we educate people, we they'll be somehow different. like at bashir. bashir assad is as bad as the old man. >> the fact you speak good english -- speak good english, tell american joke, we fall for you. thank you. >> absolutely. >> thank you. it was great to have an expert here. up next, establish a super state with the militia? imagine bringing a separate state militia. to fight who?
this is what some states are up to. they want to legalize -- well, we're going to get all of it. we'll be right back with some of the crazy stuff going on. we'll be right back. ♪ [ female announcer ] start your morning... hey. what are you doing up? i thought i'd take a drive before work. want to come? [ female announcer ] or make his day. yeah. [ female announcer ] maxwell house gives you a rich, full-flavored cup of coffee, so you can be good to the last drop. [ female announcer ] maxwell house gives you a rich, full-flavored cup of coffee, to stay fit, you might also want to try lifting one of these. a unique sea salt added to over 40 campbell's condensed soups.
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we're 78,000 people looking out for 70 million americans. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare. back to "hardball," now "the sideshow." coast to coast, the tea party parties on. look at what they're doing in state legislatures across the country. we're talking some weird bills out there. here's a sampler. courtesy of salon.com. in iowa, a bill would make it legal for business owners to refuse services to people in a marriage that violates the owner of that establishment's religious beliefs. translation, we reserve the right not to serve gay couples. in georgia, a bill would require the use of gold or silver to pay money the state owes to someone. arizona's concerning a bill that
gives citizenship to someone born here, only if at least one parent is a american citizen or legal resident. in new hampshire, tea parties introduced a bill that establishing a permanent state force to defend from, quote, invasion, rebellion or insurrection. in montana, a bill called global warming quote a natural occurrence which is beneficial to the welfare and business climate of montana. you just say it, that's all you have to do. go away. climate change goes away. unless i'm wrong, these are most ly the work of full-mooners out there and will not become law. then again, you can't bet on it. next, governor haley barer barbour refused to denounce a bill to put a kkk leader's name on a license plate. he now says he'd veto such a bill.
he may blow kisses at the old guard down there, but he's not getting in bed with him. up next, a tell-all book from a former aide of sarah palin. this is candy time. it includes former e-mails from the former governor. somebody has ratted her out. that's ahead. if you missed our documentary of bill clinton, you can catch it online on hardball.com. the whole hour is fabulous. you've got to watch it as your leisure. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. and go everywhere. to help revitalize a neighborhood in massachusetts, restore a historic landmark in harlem, fund a local business in chicago, expand green energy initiatives in seattle. because when you're giving, lending and investing in more communities across the country, more opportunities happen.
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the saudis have more than enough reserves to meet global demand. the white house is deploying a teem to help search for survivors. the sku state department is urging other nations to join them in a crackdown on piracy off the coast of somalia, in response to the murder of four hostages from their private yacht. preelection polls gives rahm emanuel a clear advantage. and in houston, a dozen bidoes that standers stepped in to live and move a burning car away from a barriers, rescuing a driver. they lifted the car. amazing. back to "hardball." s back to "hardball."
an unpublished manuscript by a former staffer frank bailey claims that his e-mails with the governor, including her thoughts on other politicians. including apparently, her writing letters to the editor under other people's names. isn't that for the people to do? no, she writes them. >> she writes letters to the editors saying how great sarah palin is. for more, i'm joined by cynthia tucker and msnbc political analyst, david corn. who writes for politics daily and also mother jones. david, you had one to top this. when i told you we had the story, this is the kind of stuff that goes on in campaigns, but usually by the guys fighting for their fourth term. here she is running the first time, writing letters. isn't this sarah palin really great? signed joe blow and it's her. >> yes, "i have a friend" -- >> she's actually claiming to be other people. and what did you say? >> now, it turns out and this is
current, not back in the wasilla days, that she has a fake facebook page under the name lou sarah. her middle name is louise, in which she likes what sarah palin says on facebook and what sarah palin says on fox news. >> how much time delay goes between the time sarah palin says something on fox and somebody writes on facebook how great it was? >> here's another one. i know how people get names wrong. she was convinced and fought over the fact it wasn't mitt romney. his real name was milton romney. if you do any reading of the papers -- this is where my argument is. if you do any reading of the papers, you know the guy is mitt. >> she was clueless, but absolutely confident. i love the fact that this woman is so confident in her ignorance. >> oh, yeah. >> insisting, arguing with her staff and no, she didn't know anything about the national political scene. >> how about this one where she gets picked by john mccain, but
didn't know she's out there rooting for huck. huckabee is my good friend. here's my favorite one. "i hate this damn job." somebody's talking about her running for president. i would guess that being president of the united states in these times, is about 30, 100 times worse than running class. if you hate that kind of work, which is worrying about things, would she want this other job? or just be a commentator? >> when she left the job of alaskan governor, she said, one reason she said she was leaving was she couldn't take the bad media. it was just too much. now -- >> in alaska. >> in class alaska. >> been to new york lately? >> what are you going to do in the white house when the media comes after you? just do fox news? which she talked about in the e-mails as well. >> wait until she gets a load of us. >> the idea that was too taxing a job. but here's the one that i love
this one, here's the one she refers to newt gingrich. not that i'm going to carry any water for that character. she refers to him as that good old rich white guy. >> that was my favorite thing. here's a woman busy making as much money -- >> she's white too, though. why would she call guy a white guy? >> well, you know, they're both white. >> seems like an honest thing to odd thing to single out. it's not like we have a tribal war going on here. >> and i'm not going to defend newt either, but the fact that she sees enemies everywhere. remember nixon's enemy's list? she puts that list to shame. let's take a look at this other one. this is kind of fun. she talks about katie couric. palin still holding a grudge. how can you indicate katie couric? here's the quote -- she sucked in ratings before she stumbled upon her little gig mocking me.
she didn't almost lose her job before that vp interview. "that vp interview" she makes it sound like there's another person. who couldn't name a single thing that ever read. >> this just shows that in sarah palin's cosmos, the center of that universe is sarah palin. all that mattered about katie couric is her interview with sarah palin. you know, that's what saved katie couric's jobs. i don't think quite thing so, but that's how she views the world and with her in the middle. >> that was a real curveball question. wasn't it? >> what do you read? >> what a sneaky thing that was. >> liberal media elite -- people -- >> people have been asking that question of newcomer politicians since i can remember and the purpose was not the trick them. >> it's a softball. >> to find out where their head the coming from. >> it's the softball question. >> it should be a softball question. it's not always. >> i generally don't like rats.
people that rat out their bosses, generally i don't. i worked for a number of politicians, and i observed the rule, you have a confidential relationship with them. so defend this guy. is it by your likes, you've always be a journalist. never on the inside. >> i'm for more information. >> you're for more rats. >> in fact, i'm working with msnbc.com with a request to the state of alaska for all sarah palin's e-mails. we've been trying to do this for a few years. >> you have a foia? >> it's supposed to come out in the spring. the interesting thing is he says he has 60,000 e-mails back and forth with sarah palin. the state of alaska tells us there are 26,000 pages. they have less than what he has. >> just to get this straight as journalists, this stuff he's offering up as his manuscript, do we know, they keep saying in
the news stories, according to him. according to him. >> we don't know for sure. >> the wrinkle in the is the >> it's only in the manuscript. the wrinkle in this is the competition between this character and the great joe mcginnis. i cannot wait to get him on the show. now, he apparently leaked this manuscript. so it would screw the chances of this getting any sale, so his book would get all the sales. >> that seems to be what might have happened. >> i'm for him. i'm rooting for this guy. i want to hear what -- >> this is what i'd like frank bailey to do. if you want to do a public service, frank, you should put all 60,000 e-mails on that thing called the internet and let's look at them and see if what you say is true. >> when the book comes out. he's got to sell the book first. >> if he can sell the book first. >> i have a copyright here. >> i don't think she's running now. >> no. >> do you think she's running? >> she's damaged goods. >> i don't think this carnival will sell. do you think she's running? >> i thought she wouldn't, but every time i read about her, she
seems so self-centered that i don't know how she could pass up this opportunity. >> is she just like moammar >> thank you both. we're going to give her a break this week. up next texas is on its way to concealing handguns. we're going to talk to a state senator pushing a bill to let college kids carry guns on campus no matter what the university says. and a survivor of the virginia tech shooting to talk about the other point of view. this is "hardball," only on msnbc. impact wool exports from new zealand, textile production in spain, and the use of medical technology in the u.s.? at t. rowe price, we understand the connections of a complex, global economy. it's just one reason over 80% of our mutual funds beat their 10-year lipper average. t. rowe price. invest with confidence. request a prospectus or summary prospectus with investment information, risks, fees and expenses to read and consider carefully before investing. new windowsstment information, risks, fees and expenses phone can go from my pocket to taking a picture in seconds. what up, dave!
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we're back. would having more guns on college campuses make them safer places to stud,? a long list of lawmakers down in texas says the answer is yes, and with a big rep majority in the state capital, it looks like it might happen. he is the sponsor of a bill that would allow people with concealed handgun licenses to take handguns into college dorms and other buildings, the classrooms.
colin goddard is with the brady campaign, and is with us. he's a survivor of the virginia tech shooting. he was shot four times in that horrible incident. he's featured a new documentary about the tragedy at virginia tech, called "living for "22." why do you think colleges should be required to allow students to carry weapons? with licenses? >> in the first place, i'd like to change the characterization. it's not college kids. carrying concealed weapons. in texas, the law requires you to be 21 years of age to have a license. so, if you're a traditional freshman, sophomore, junior, you're 17, 18, 19, 20 years old, so you're not eligible for a concealed carry license. it's mainly members of the faculty, staff, graduate students, and a few seniors. it's purely for self-defense. >> i was a youngest kid in my class and 21 in my senior year. >> me, too.
i was 21 in nigh senior year, but we're not talking about freshmen, solve morse and juniors. >> we're talking about seniors carrying guns on campus. tell me, how does that make it safer for those students, or for anybody? >> well, if i'm in a class and a deranged madman comes on campus in texas, 'had did in virginia everybody is unarmed and defenseless and vulnerable, we are all dead. if somebody in the class has a license, and has been through a significant period. i mean, in order to get a license in texas, you have to go through a ten hour class, you have to pass a test, you have to go on a shooting range and pass. you pass a criminal background check. you give up your fingerprints, photographs, pay a not insignificant fee over a hundred dollars. it takes several weeks. it is not something you go down and plunk down $10 and get that. >> back in the old days, we watched old movie, know what it
was like in the old west. they apparently put the guns at the city limits, couldn't carry them to saloons and places like that. do you think it is okay for 21 or 22-year-old grad student to walk into a campus bar or something and when you got alcohol involved, guys and girls together with the usual competition that goes on there, social competition, with booze, and guns, do you think that's a healthy combination? >> well, that hypothetical you gave doesn't happen -- >> not hypothetical. you can walk into a bar with your law. >> no, it is not. that's misrepresentation of fact. you cannot go in texas legally with concealed carry license with a gun. now, people do it illegally all the time. but this bill would not allow that. >> but you said campuses would be allowed to have kids carrying guns. what about a baron campus. >> we don't have bars on campus in texas. it is against the law in texas. >> it is? >> yes, sir. no alcohol allowed. >> private college campuses you can't have a bar?
>> now you flipped it. we are talking public universities. not talking private. >> a lot of colleges i know, they have campus bars. >> they don't in texas. we're talking about texas. >> so you would bring them, let them play -- how about kids that play football, could they carry during the game or what? not during the game? >> actually the law does not allow currently and this would not change it. for athletic contests, not permitted. >> allowed to take it to the contest? >> no. >> can't take it to the contest, can't take it to any kind of bar scenario, but you can walk around campus. >> that's right. >> let's go to kyle with the other point of view. guns on campus. >> the senator fails to mention in texas public schools, there are hospitals, there are daycare centers. what about a judicial referral, what about tenure hearing. these are all places you are allowed to be bringing a gun. unfortunately people that support this idea have a narrow focus on the problem that's
multidimensional. they look at it as someone is about to come shoot you, do you want a gun or not. when you look at it like that, you miss the ideas and concepts of the fact that 93% of student victim violations happens off campus where concealed carry is allowed. police officers will no longer with able to respond effectively. the cops said the first man they would have saw with a gun, they would have shot him. and they need to respond that way. this would totally change the dynamic. and the senator needs to know there's a lawsuit filed in will you be i can that would drop minimum age of concealed carry from 21 to 18. >> senator, your response? >> well, there's no bill that i know of that's dropping the age and i would object to that and oppose it. i think 21 is the correct age. as for law enforcement, law enforcement when they arrive on a scene like he's describing, they're instructed in training before they are certified as peace officers. when they show up, not sure
what's going on, they say everybody put their guns down. everybody put their guns down. the good 'ol guys that are law abiding will. the only ones that won't are the deranged people that are the law breakers in the first place. >> do you think it will be weird for a student to get grades from a professor while he's armed, senator? >> well, they're posted usually on a bulletin board in the hall. >> just seems odd if i were a professor, i had a student that was armed when we are having a tutorial, talking grades or anything, seems odd. you're looking into a classroom and seeing men and women with guns in the classroom. doesn't that seem odd to you? >> no, you're not. in texas, you cannot display the weapon. that's why they call it concealed. >> that's odd, a student comes to study philosophy or anything, and he's armed? >> chris, right now in texas, if you go shopping at a grocery store, drugstore, go to movie
theater, shopping mall, there are kids, 21 or 22. >> okay, we got to go. >> they are walking with concealed carry weapons legally. >> i don't know, it is a strange world you're getting us into. maybe it is cowboys and indians. i live in the city. i think it is strange. thank you, senator. you made your points well. senator jeff wentworth, and colin goddard, a fight that will go on. when we return, some rules for americans when it comes to overseas rebellions and which side we should be on. you're watching "hardball." [ male announcer ] if you think "heroes" are only in movies, consider this: over 70% of firefighters are local volunteers... these are our neighbors putting their lives on the line. and when they rely on a battery, there are firefighters everywhere who trust duracell.
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let me finish tonight with some handy american rules for dealing with overseas revolutions. rule one, always side with nationalism. always, always back the people fighting against oppression by another country. in 1954, we got on the wrong side of nationalism in inched oh china and it led to the vietnam war. jack kennedy spoke out about the algerians daring the french, a daring move that singled him out and our country out. in the 1960s, kennedy expressed friendship with african countries, recently freed from colonialism. rule two. always take the side of expanded